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Lithuanian language area acc. to Kurschat 1876
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incognito
Posted 2007-03-19 14:35 (#43458 - in reply to #43297)
Subject: RE: szameiten, gudden



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Velnias - 2007-03-09 8:59 PM

Velnias, if you don't now lithuanian language at all, if you know nothing about linguistics, it would be worth to discuss. But reality is such: you speak very well in lithunian, and you know linguistic questions very well (one of the main forumists who discusses such questions). So don't pretend, you should know, that words gudablė, gudobėle, gudažvirblis and so on are connected words http://ualgiman.dtiltas.lt/duriniai.html
and the meaning of gudobelė is apple-tree of gudai, so gud- someone that has connections with gudai 


No, it has nothing common with gudai. Linguists (for eg. S. Karaliūnas and others) researched all cases and found that it's common with specific Balto-Slavic stem (which exists in proto Indo-European, existence here means that there is equivalence in other Indo-European languages which didn't have connections) used for minor fauna and flora.
So gudobelė is a bush (minor flora), gudažvirblis (kinda very small bird similar to sparrow, minor fauna) and etc... 

Velnias, I am not talking about origins of this name - gudai

Etnonym of gudai came from Germanic, long time ago it was used to name Goths. Meaning of gudas (person, who speaks in hardly understandable speech came from etnonym gudai

Exactly, let's make clear what meaning had term gudai among prussian lithuanians? Let's talk about people. If you say village with name Gudeliai is named due such flower, then placenames in Lithuania laike Bajorai, Bajorėliai, Bajorlaukis is not named due our noblemans (bajorai) but due such flower - Bajorė - Centaurea, engl. Star thistle, germ. Flockenblumen
http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bajorė
Or such village like Mozūriškiai is named not due masurians, but due such dance - Mazurka....
Such etimology will be a revolution....


That's logical: if pole (lenkas) speaks in polish he is lenkuoja, if latvian speaks in latvian in lithuanian would be - latviuoti. So gudas indeed guduoja. 

People who didn't understand Polish or neighboring Belarusian dialect didn't feel difference between languages, because phonetics and structure of languages are very similar. Naturally gudai was appealed to Polish. 

First gudai was named after germanic tribe - goths, and was targted to them. Later when goths were replaced by slavic tribes, this ethnonym was targted at our southern neighbours: poles and belarussians. Now gudai is 3 meanings. Naturally, probably, for lithuanians who didn't understand what slaves were talking, the same problem occuried with other lithuanians with distant dialect - was hard to understand both, that's why term gudas was aplied to other lithuanians.

Velnias, ortography of prussian lithuanians was the thing that had differencies from lithuanians. Our ortography was based on polish, prussian lithuanian - on german ortography. 


I was talking not about ortography, but about meaning of symbols in writting. Gothic n means Roman n, Gothic a - Roman a..., whole word namas means the same in both dialects. But there are differences in pronunciation, for example in Minor Lithuanian people lost -i- in diphthongs -ai-, -ei- because of West Baltic influence (ežeraitis -> ežeratis, Kuršaitis - > Kuršatis, ovatė -> avaitė and etc...), -l- was soft because of German influence (soft -l- is still preserved in West Aukstaitian of Klaipėda land and West Samogitian) and etc...

Most Lithuanian books were printed in Karaliaucius (Keningsberg) and brought to Major Lithuania despite ortography. 


Only two phrases are from Klaipėda (Klp), but we know, that prussian lithuanians from this area spoke in samogitian sudialect - so is this means from one samogitian subdialect refers to another subdialect as gudai?  


As in dictionary was written - peolpe used gudas refering to other dialects or subdialects: (gudais vadina žemaičiai aukštaičius, panevėžiškiai kupiškėnus ir t. t., so kupiškėnai/panevėžiškiai are subdialects of the same dialect
Anyway, there is not such a big diferencies. In Aukštaitija region is even more biger variety of subdialects. Language of prussian lithuanians is the same continuum of our lithuanian dialects and even subdialects.
For kauniškai subdialect belongs striukiai and baltsermėgiai subsubdialects (šnektos !!!) of prussian lithuanians:
"Kauniškių tarmė, davusi pagrindą bendrinei kalbai, yra ir centrinė, ir periferinė: pietvakariuose siekia lietuvių kalbos ploto pakraštį, jai priklauso dvi Mažosios Lietuvos šnektos (baltsermėgiai ir striukiai). "
http://www.voruta.lt/article.php?article=977
Language of prussian lithuanians around Klaipėda/Memel town is the same samogitian dialect, more precise - dūninkai subdialect.
So how could appear term gudai? Do you want to say prussian lithuanians were so precise, that nicknamed each other due subsubdialects!?


ead once more, what I wrote. This is would be a real sensation: toponyms like Gudkiemis, Gudapievis, Gudiškės originates from houseware and plants! I' ve nearly collected all toponyms with Gud- in Lithuania, when map will be finished you will be able to see and the results will talk for themselves. 


Gudapievys really could be connected with such kind of fauna - grasslands of minor fauna/flora - gudapievis. This does not deny the sensation

But gudkiemis obviously is connected with people who speak in different language (subdialect).

Gudiškės may be connected with both, like for examle other toponyms with -išk- connected with flora Biržuliškis (from dialectal biržulis - little birch, beržulis), Vilkiškis (from vilkas, place where many wolves), also other origins Kuliškis (from Kūlis- stone, place where are a lot of stones, like Kūlėnai...) and etc... 

Then toponym like Bajorlaukis - field where grows such plant 'bajorė'... or more realistic variant - Bajorlaukis - is a field that belongs to nobleman. Anyway I'd found 2 toponyms with Gudlaukis - one is near Lithuanian - Belarussian border... the place explains itself.



Nonsence? Don't you believe in words of Petras Klimas: "buvo matyti kažkokio nepasitikėjimo ar net baimės „pasiduoti žemaičiams“. 

1. This is subjective view of P. Klimas
2. P. Klimas is not Lietuvininkas
3. Lietuvininkai used term Žemaičiai to call those people who live in Samogitia and lietuvininkai for those who live in whole Lithuania. 

Sorry, but this is ridiculous explanation. Now according to this logic: all data of authors who wrote about prussian lithuanians and were not prussian lithuanians becames unreliable?

Even nazis of Tilsit in 1935 hang up doll of samogitian, but not lithuanian:
"teroras ypač įsisiautėjo ryšium su Lietuvos teismo nuosprendžiu Klaipėdos krašte veikusių hitlerininkų bylose.Gąsdindami lietuvius, hitlerininkai Tilžėje ant tilto per Nemuną pakorė žemaičio (atseit, lietuvio) iškamšą ir paskelbė, jog lietuvybė jau likviduota MLTE,3,93" 

You don't know historical context. Žemaitis is used to mark geographical origins and dialect of that guy. There was migration between Samogitia and Minor Lithuania, Lithuanian came to Tilžė, then he was caught by Nazis and killed.

In those times people understood their nationality linguistically. Samogitians wherever they lived knew that they're Samogitians (like A. Brakas), all Lithuanian (including dialects) speaking people knew that they're Lithuanians and Lietuvininkai all Lithuanian speaking people called Lietuvininkai. 

About what migration you are taling about in 1935?. Samogitian (in germ. Szameiten) was a bit pejorative name that was targeted for us - lithuanians from Lithuania Major.


Thanks. But this is not a sensation, that prussian lithuanians used term lietuvininkai
But read carefull what is written:
Lithuanians resisted crusadres: don't forget in 18 century was not known Mortensens works.
" Ale šaunius lietuvninkus
ikšiol niekaip įveikt galėjo53:
jie vieni prieš neprietelius
100 nepergalėtinai54 stovėjo."

Hetman of Lithuania Major appears:
"Bet etmons Didžios Lietuvos82
kryželninkams daug vargo darė, 


Gosh, i'm becomming annoyed. Not all Minor Lithuanians were affected by Mortensen. Generally these Lithuanians who were affected by nazi works were only minority!!!! 

Sorry, I don't understand waht are you meaning for? The fact: that all subdialects and even subsubdialects of prussian lithuanians are continuums of lithuanian dialects and subdialects clearly shows from what places they migrated. If you want to say in prussian lithuanian ethnogenesis played a big role nadrovians and scalovians - it wasn't so, because in such case substratum of these tribes wooul affect language. For example north samogitian - is affected by curonian substratum. But where is such substratum among striukiai and baltesrmegiai? Prussian lithuanians of Klaipėda/Memel - Šilutė/Heydekrug area are indeed affected by curonian substratum, so naturally they language is in subdialect, but not in subsubdialect level.

Even Z. Zinkevičius is not sure. 

Where? 

I gave this quote earlier, look few previous post:
http://forum.istorija.net/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2916&mid=42509...
"Neaiškumų kelia (it is unclear) sąvokos lietuvininkai (lietuviai) ir žemaičiai. Jos anuomet greičiausiai (probably) reiškė ne visai tą patį, ką dabar jomis reiškiame <.....> Taigi Mažvydas terminą žemaičiai greičiausiai (probably) taikė vidurio Lietuvos žemumų "
Are you wiser than Zinkevičius?

So you say that Lietuvininkai thought that in Lithuania live only Gudai and Samogitians but any Lithuanians? Now think what you said. 

Look, man exonym and endonyms have different meanings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym_and_endonym
This will be no surprise that from prussian lithuanian point of view lithuanians of Lithuania Major were named in different name. Where is a problem?
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