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incognito
Posted 2007-04-27 13:18 (#44134 - in reply to #43560)
Subject: RE: gudai / gudden



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Velnias - 2007-03-24 3:24 PM

And this can't be due division of Lithuania into Polish and Russian Lithuania's, as forumist Velnias thinks. 


Really? Isn't that strange that I didn't know that I think so?

When you read what is written in English, try to understand context and subtopic. 

I agree, it is possible to explain why is such division into Polish, Russian and Prussian Lithuanias.
http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaizdas:Lithuania-1867-1914.svg
"Suvalkų gubernija" was a part of Congress Poland (1815-1914). So, naturally this could be named Polish Lithuania. And poles could be named (and were named) as gudai too, because the are slavs. But such division didn't explains how appeared toponyms named after gudai ir Prussia. There was no migration of peasants who settled in Prussia in 19 century.

orumist Velnias thinks toponyms gudai appeared due dialectical differencies, but this hard to be, because: 1. prussian lithuanians for persons with different subdialects named according place where they came from: tilžėnai, raigainėnai. 2. Among prussian lithuanians dialect diversity in 19 century was lesser neither between lithuanians of Lithuania Major. 

The talk was about immigration and dialects from Major Lithuania. Gudai was appealed for them. In Aukstaitija term guduoti means "to pronounce speech like gudai" because some subdialectal phonetics is similar to neighboring Slavic (cekavimas, dzekavimas, t'-> c, d' - > dz and etc.). The meaning of gudas (misunderstandably speaking) came from Major Lithuania and is old enough (reaching medieval times).

Term gudas was used not to characterize particular subdialect (like Tilžėnai, Ragainėnai), but to characterize people, who speak differently, "guduoja". People who came from Major Lithuania in 16 century spoke very differently.
People, who speak in different dialect can settle down in areal of other dialect and adopt it. (Like dūninikai adopt dounininkai subdialect or people who settle down in province adopt local dialect instead of standard language

In 16 century prussian lithuanian lived in large area:
http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16.jpg
http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16n.jpg
Naturally, in these times it was more dialects and subdialects. Right? But the location of toponyms named after gudai - all were not so far with border with Lithuania - is indeed strange. Why not all over Lithuania Minor?

Because such division appeared only in 1815 after Vienna Congress when Kingdom of Poland was created. Indeed lithuanians could name poles as gudai, but the were no massive migration of poles, neither the was migration of other lithuanians into Prussia in 19 century. 

There was migration, but not massive. (remember "tautinis atgimimas" and its public characters, also knygnešiai/book-bringers).
But most of toponyms came from earlier times (16th century) when migration was very intensive due to establishment of the Protestantism. 

Yes, members of national aweking worked in Tilsit, but they didn' t settled in rural areas. The last known small scale migration of lithuanians into Prussia was after the great pest in the beginning of 18 century, but king FrederickI prefered salzburgers - he was a king, he was legitimate to decide. And the position of, seems, shows those gudai could be only from neighbouring country. Like in our Lithuania toponyms named after latvians are near border with Latvia, and like toponyms named after belarusians are near with border with Belarus. Why this wasn't possible?

Edited by incognito 2007-04-27 13:26
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