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Baltų ir slavų etnogenezė

Moderators: Inga, Linas, Remigijus, Ibicus

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  Frozen      FORUMAI -> Lietuvos istorijos forumas Message format 
Posted 2010-04-15 16:30 (#76767 - in reply to #76760)
Subject: RE: senieji europiečiai ne IE


Posts: 2248
mantas - 2010-04-14 23:25

Tuskawas - 2010-04-15 02:02
Jie gal buvo megalitiniai europiečiai (o balto-finai tai tikrai ne indoeuropietiško kraujo nors kalbinę įtaką iš baltų tai gal ir turėjo), o ne indoeuropiečiai o remtis galima praktiškai visais žinomais šaltiniais :

Dėl "neindoeuropietiškų senųjų europidų": argumentus - į studiją!
Kalbu apie ikivirvelinę Narvos kultūrą. 

na aš irgi to neteigiu 100% dar nežinau kuri teorija indoeuropiečių kilmę paaiškintu 100% bet teorijų, dėl senųjų megalitinių europidų nors tvenkinius tvenk

pvz lengvas populiarus indoeuropiečių migracijos aiškinimas, net neliečiant genetikos

o palietus genetiką tai ir Gimbutienės ir Girininko teorijos pradeda daug ko nepaaiškinti. Gimbutienės kurganų hipotezė nelabai paaiškina kaip atsirado indoeuropiečiai Vakarų europoje (rytų ir vidurio europos indoeuropiečių kilmę manau kurganų hipotezė gana aiškiai paaiškina) o Girininko teorija nepaaiškina lietuvių ir sanskrito kalbų panašumo (kažkaip be didelių migracijų nelabai tai turbūt įmanoma?)

Ir dar jau internete pilna straipsnių, kad R1b haplogrupės vyrai apgyvendino Europą dar prieš paskutinį apledėjimą, t.y. dar prieš 13000 metų, pralaukę ledynmetį Pirėnuose, jie pasklido po visą Europą

Moreover, we should shortly consider the frequently mentioned R1b haplogroup and its relatedness to the early Indo-Europeans. Genetic studies demonstrate that the areas of Western Europe finally occupied by Celtic speakers have high statistical concentration of R1b haplogroup (see distribution map). The R1b is particularly frequent in (1) Basques (88%); (2) apparently post-Pictic (herein, regarded as arguably pre-Celtic) population of northern England (80-90%); (3) the Hausa population of Sudan (40%) and some other peoples of sub-Saharan Africa; (4) Armenians (30%) and Ossetians (40%); and (5) Bashkirs (Turkic) in the Urals (85%) (see wiki for details). These maximum concentration areas should correspond either to a haplogroup homeland or subsequently formed genetic refugia that remain after the rest of the territory was diluted and submerged by the flood of new-comers. The latter, of course, seems to be the case, judging from the multiple nature of these concentration islands characterized by their location in poorly accesable regions, such as mountains, and the scarcity of R1b in Asia (e.g. 0.5% in India). Therefore, the origins of this, so to say, "Sahara-Picto-Vascono-Uralo-Caucasian" haplogroup, which most likely originated before 15,000 BC, cannot be Indo-European, it should be regarded as linguistically unrelated and going back to the Mesolithic. As a result, the R1b clans constituted a different linguo-genetic substrate that, after the arrival of Indo-Europeans, finally produced what we know now as "Celtic languages" through an imperfect aquisition of a certain mainstream Centum proto-language (or even a number of them).

Consequently, it's reasonable to assume that the Celtic languages must have been rather innovative and, in theory, could have preserved certain features from the R1b linguistic substratum, which was probably essentially Proto-Vasconic (judging from its 90% concentration among the Basques), although presently, it would be quite difficult to establish any elements in Celtic going back to Proto-Basque.

Finally, after the period of Roman Empire, these Celtic speakers again changed their language by switching to modern Romance and Germanic languages of Western Europe, such as Spanish, French and English, and now constitute the majority population of Western Europe, with the Celtic languages marginalized to the northwest of the British Isles.

[As a digression, one might also wonder how this unrelated R1b group got to northern and central Africa; it likely happened with the migration of Neolithic farmers (after 8000 BC) traveling along the Nile into Sudan, Chad, Cameroon, and the Sahara which was more humid before 3000 BC].
bet apie tai gi kitoje gijoje jau bandėm kalbėti

Edited by Tuskawas 2010-04-15 23:15
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